Talk:Jesus
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Frequently asked questions
[edit]| This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived. |
- Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Wikipedia?
- The issue was discussed on the talk page:
- Based on this Wikipedia search the phrase is widely used in Wikipedia.
- The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
- The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.
- Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?
- Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.
- Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?
- The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:
- Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
- Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.
- The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.
- Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?
- The formal Wikipedia guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Wikipedia guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".
- Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?
- A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.
- Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
- Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
- Finally, it is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally.[1] For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine,[2] Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."[3][4] Likewise, Wikipedia policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.
- Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
- A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
- More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.
- Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?
- Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
- Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?
- The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.
References
- ^ R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
- ^ Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
- ^ Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.
Why don't Jesus and Mary have the golden border of Saint like other saints do? (infobox Saint)
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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I don't want to add it myself, but it genuinely looks like a missed add. Looking at the articles Saint Joseph and Joachim, we can see they have the golden border and the Saint naming on Wikipedia. But for some reason, the articles Jesus and Mary, mother of Jesus do not have this. Jesus's infobox is named as "Person". Iamrighthere (talk) 15:14, 15 March 2026 (UTC)
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Mentioning of Jesus' role in Islam in the first paragraph
[edit]The introductory paragraph discusses the figure’s influence and presence in major global communities. In that context, it would be appropriate to also highlight the figure’s role in one of the world’s major religions, alongside the primary faith tradition. Kaeez06 (talk) 17:09, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
- Islam is mentioned. It has also been discussed many times, as you can see in the archives. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:27, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
- I reverted you per "The lead paragraphs and infobox were created by consensus after considerable discussion by a variety of editors. Out of courtesy for this process, please discuss any proposed changes on the talk page before editing it."
- What you added to the first paragraph was pretty much in the fourth already, so you introduced some repetition. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:03, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
Extended confirmed protection request
[edit]The missing words/sentences and spelling mistakes should be edited by the person who currently controls the semi-protection. Lucas Larouche (talk) 19:09, 28 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Lucas Larouche They might, provided they notice any. But you know you can edit semi-protected articles, right? So you don't have to go through the bother of telling someone else to edit the spelling mistakes you found here. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:46, 28 March 2026 (UTC)
Reverting page name to "Jesus Christ"?
[edit]Wouldn't it be cogent to have the article name changed from "Jesus" to "Jesus Christ"? Interspect (talk) 23:36, 28 March 2026 (UTC)
- No because Jews and Muslims don't use that title when referring to him. See Talk:Jesus/FAQ Q1 NightWolf1223 <Howl at me•My hunts> 00:11, 29 March 2026 (UTC)
- This is a bio about Jesus, not a religious article on how he is viewed by various religions. That is covered in other articles. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:16, 29 March 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, part of Christ (title) article better discusses about the "Jesus Christ" part of Jesus, Jesus in Christianity specific to Christianity, and Names and titles of Jesus in the New Testament for the names of Jesus that people had referred. Jesus the person is more general to all religions. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 17:23, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
Depictions of brown Jesus
[edit]Since this page is discussing the historical Jesus it stands to reason there should be at least one depiction of Him as brown outside of the photo collage in the language, ethnicity, and appearance section. Sorry if this has been brought up before, I could not find this subject discussed in the archives but there are so many of them I easily could have missed it. Mrislwyn (talk) 01:52, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
- What pic do you suggest adding, where? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:29, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
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