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Articles by Robert
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An alternative optimist's hope for the future of work
An alternative optimist's hope for the future of work
What if you didn't have to choose between a paycheck and meaningful work? Every few weeks another round of layoffs…
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The Commerce Alarms Inside Expedia's 10-K
The Commerce Alarms Inside Expedia's 10-K
Expedia's newly filed 10-K names "companies offering AI agents" as a direct competitor category. That's worth sitting…
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Close the Curtain on Product Management Theater
Close the Curtain on Product Management Theater
The Era of Product Model Evangelism is over - let's try something new Harvard Business Review published a piece this…
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Robert Neer shared thisI moved here without a job, because I had spent a summer here during college and loved it. I loved the nature, I loved the water, I loved the rain, I loved the mountains, I loved the music, I loved the vibes, I loved the history, I loved the potential. I saw a future here. I got married, I got an MBA from UW, I raised two young Huskies. I worked here, I recruited people here, I led here. Most of my dearest friends and their kids are here. I want this place to be great for all of them for generations. My time here has not been transactional but it has been rewarding. If everyone who thinks about economics, and business, and opportunity like I do leaves when things get messy then I do worry about that future. But I'm here and I'm staying and I'm trying to build something here. I'm optimistic and I want to help.Robert Neer shared thisThis year, I've watched a shocking number of people in my inner circle leave Seattle. Some were early in their careers. Some were at their peak. Some were retired. What they shared: highly educated, successful, deeply in love with the PNW, and woven into this community. They left for variations of the same reason — economics. Layoffs. Job insecurity. Fewer compelling career options. Lower comp. Higher taxes. A cost of living that no longer pencils out. I've lived in Seattle since 1999, and this is the first time I've witnessed an exodus this rapid. We lost people who brought unique skills, paid meaningful taxes, cared deeply about this place, and gave their time, treasure, and talent to making it better. I lost relationships that took years to build. I'm sad — and frankly, I'm pissed. I'm still a believer in Seattle and believe we can do better. Along with my partners in crime, Ajit Banerjee, Ryan Snodgrass, Galex Yen we're committed to building our company here. But the pull toward greener pastures is real right now — which is why John Cook's piece in GeekWire resonates so much. https://lnkd.in/g7nk5juNAre we on a Road to Nowhere? Seattle’s growth masks deeper anxieties about its futureAre we on a Road to Nowhere? Seattle’s growth masks deeper anxieties about its future
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Robert Neer shared thisAs we collectively grapple with impact and opportunities of this AI momentum, I hear a repeated optimist's refrain goading those worried about their jobs and the future of their work: come on people, now is the time to bet on yourself, build your own thing, the era of the entrepreneur is here. I've taken that leap and I'm not looking back. But I don't think it's the right answer for everyone, or even most people. And I've been wondering why we can't seem to imagine other futures. I wrote about a different possibility where the enterprise is not a human-free optimization machine, but the place where you get the desired autonomy without the financial exposure, the small team without the isolation, the meaningful work without the risk.An alternative optimist's hope for the future of workAn alternative optimist's hope for the future of work
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Robert Neer posted thisMy evolving guide to spotting unedited AI-slop. Some patterns that scream AI wrote this and nobody checked: "It's not a this. It's a this." Just say what it IS. A rhetorical trope that must be so inside training data and recursive synthetic data that it is everywhere in the wild now. Functionally unnecessary in a most writing. The contrast marker "actually". In most cases it is extra. "What the customer is actually experiencing"; it can be eliminated and not lose anything other than an AI-crutch. The contrasting sentence structure model can be bloat and an also AI tell. "Customers aren't comparing products, they're making identity decisions, often under emotional pressure, and they remember how it felt." Just say "Customers are making identity decisions, often under emotional pressure, and they remember how it felt." The "framing sentence": "The real question isn’t whether AI will change work. The question is how quickly." This is a presentation device used heavily in keynote speeches and essays and LLMs learned it well. For my own use I have learned that AI writing often contains rhetorical scaffolding that can be removed without changing meaning. AI wrote most of this last conclusion. It's pretty good! It's worth codifying some of these in your AI-writing tools to see if you get cleaner, more precise output.
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Robert Neer posted thisShoutout to Zackery Riley and his team at Clarvos who are building something genuinely innovative in the Agentic AI marketing space. It will give marketers and SMB owners real leverage on their marketing dollars and brand growth. Spent time with them last week exploring a question that I think matters for every AI-native product team right now: How do you use AI to accelerate the most human part of product work, making sense of the full system your customers operate in, to make better decisions about what to build and why. Left energized by the passion and conviction this team has. Excited to see more of what they build.
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Robert Neer posted thisMy new favorite podcast is Business History, from two former Planet Money reporters, and amazing story tellers, Robert Smith and Jacob Goldstein. I was a history major undergrad and am a massive liberal arts education cheerleader, but mostly this makes me a sucker for things like Acquired and Business History. A recent episode was about the history of food canning. The first real durable technique was created through a military-driven innovation contest during Napoleon's reign. It took a while to really take off, but it also took 50 years before anyone created a can opener. (1810-1860) For 50 years the instructions were to use a hammer and chisel to open your cans of food. This is partly because the cans were predominantly used by the rich and the military, who had either servants in the case of the rich, or existential need in the case of the front line soldier, making the process acceptable. I've been thinking about that gap between average people and a life-changing technology a lot since listening.
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Robert Neer shared thisI realized one of the reasons I have a good time improving how I leverage AI in my work: it has a lot of similarities to getting the best out of working with other people. My co-founder and I wrote about our hopes for these lessons.Robert Neer shared thisA lot of smart people are offering insights about how to work with AI to get the best results. We've noticed a pattern here: AI is inviting us to practice the collaboration skills we've let atrophy. Leading with intent and clear expectations, iterating without defensiveness, maintaining accountability. The principles aren't new, they've been proven in decades of research on leadership. We offer an additional invitation: let's work to transfer these lessons back to our human teams and not use AI as an excuse to avoid each other entirely.
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Robert Neer shared this"The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed." Reuters reports that Gartner says 40% of agentic AI projects will be scrapped by 2027. (https://lnkd.in/gpneCvpj) Fortune reports on a 6000-CEO study showing AI productivity impact is still marginal. (https://lnkd.in/g8HGAKDe) The narrative being sold: AI is a bubble. The investment won't pay off. Slow down. The story arc we've seen play out on AI is predictable: existential fear, economic panic, bubble skepticism. Each wave designed to stop or starve something that hasn't fully arrived yet. But both articles mislead by burying the lede. Gartner's own forecast shows agentic AI workloads exploding by 2028. The Fortune CEOs — the same ones showing low current impact — expect notable, measurable productivity gains within three years. The actual source data undermines the headlines. This has a name. Robert Solow noticed it in 1987: "You can see the computer age everywhere except in the productivity statistics." The 1990s proved him eventually wrong — but the gains were real, uneven, sector-specific, and took organizational redesign to capture. Not a clean vindication, but a diffusion curve doing exactly what diffusion curves do. AI might different in one important way. The St. Louis Federal Reserve is already detecting productivity signal in macro data within two years of ChatGPT's launch. It took the PC era years to show up the same way. And a landmark NBER study found AI's overall adoption has outpaced both the PC and the internet relative to each technology's launch. Which makes this moment more urgent, not more forgiving. AI as a tool creates faster iteration cycles than any technology before it — which means your ability to run good experiments, learn from them, and adjust matters more than ever. A bad learning culture with a slow tool is inefficient. A bad learning culture with a fast tool is just faster at being wrong over and over. The organizations treating a 40% failure rate as signal and can derive sense-making from it by learning fast, adjusting, reinvesting smartly, are building a lead that will show up in someone else's alarming headline in 2028. The question isn't whether to experiment, i's whether you're building the capability to learn from it.Thousands of CEOs just admitted AI had no impact on employment or productivity—and it has economists resurrecting a paradox from 40 years ago | FortuneThousands of CEOs just admitted AI had no impact on employment or productivity—and it has economists resurrecting a paradox from 40 years ago | Fortune
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Robert Neer shared thisIf this agent thing is real, a lot of companies will find what they thought was their value proposition has always been pretty shallow. Expedia just admitted they are scared...
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Robert Neer shared thisIBM just announced they’re tripling entry-level hiring in the U.S. in 2026. (https://lnkd.in/gqnRka73) It’s not a coincidence this stance is coming from one of the most enduring companies in tech. It’s a long game move. IBM has missed major waves. It lost parts of the PC era and stumbled in early cloud. But it has survived more than a century of technology resets—tabulation to computing, hardware to services, on-prem to hybrid cloud, now AI and quantum. They’ve reinvented themselves more times than most companies have existed. So while half the industry is cutting junior roles because “AI will do that work,” IBM is doing the opposite. That’s not sentiment but good pattern recognition. Companies that think in decades treat talent and learning as infrastructure. Companies that think in quarters treat them as cost. Importantly, IBM’s move looks different because they’re playing a different game. They’re not preserving old roles out of obligation. They’re redesigning them as a part of their strategy. Entry-level work shifts from repetitive execution to judgment, context, client interaction, and supervision of AI systems. This is what I mean by AI-Native, not AI-First. AI-first asks: what human work can we automate away? AI-native asks: what becomes possible when human and machine capability are designed together from the start? None of this means disruption won’t be real. It will be brutal, uneven, and painful. But IBM isn’t betting on nostalgia, they’re betting they’ll still be relevant when the dust settles. The folks selling cost reduction as transformation are optimizing for their share of the gold rush. IBM is building for the economy that exists after it. The question isn’t whether AI changes work. It does. The question is whether you’re building durable capability—or just extracting gold from the moment.IBM to Triple Entry-Level US Hiring With Roles Recast for AI EraIBM to Triple Entry-Level US Hiring With Roles Recast for AI Era
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Robert Neer liked thisRobert Neer liked thisHello network! I don't post here very often, but a friend of mine is trying something new this fall, and asked me to share it with people who might be interested. When she shared with me who she was creating it for (women navigating the complex intersection of things like midlife, work, family, leadership, and a world that feels like it's shifting underneath ... I thought, yep! I know some of these folks!) Sharing in case this resonates. Kristen Corning Bedford is bringing together a small group in W. Seattle for an afternoon of stepping out of the day-to-day grind, taking the opportunity to think differently, make connections, and consider what comes next. It's called The Bullshitador Collective, and it's on November 13. Sharing because I suspect there are a few people in my orbit who might appreciate something like this! https://lnkd.in/g_Avrk89Bullshitador Collective: a workshop for women charting a different future • philanthro/beBullshitador Collective: a workshop for women charting a different future • philanthro/be
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Robert Neer liked thisRobert Neer liked thisAfter 15+ years designing retail and hospitality spaces for major brands, I'm excited to share what's next: This year, I launched Paperspace—a design studio focused on hospitality and retail across Seattle. It's been rewarding to work directly with clients on the spaces that matter to them and excited to share that work soon. And for the past 2 years, we've been building something special with Ámpelos in Madrona—a Washington-wine tasting room and bottle shop. It's been incredible to see how it's resonated with the Seattle community. There's more to come for Ámpelos, and I can't wait to share what's next. Both are about the same thing: creating spaces and experiences that deeply resonate with people on a human level. Looking forward to connecting with clients, collaborators, and fellow builders in Seattle. Check us out at: https://lnkd.in/g8HYcD5z or visit our LinkedIn page at https://lnkd.in/gXTQkUty https://lnkd.in/gNrMCc-u or visit our LinkedIn page at https://lnkd.in/gbrmRcm7
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Robert Neer liked thisRobert Neer liked thisMy team is hiring a Senior Director, Head of Media & Ad Products! In this exciting new role, you will help build and scale Hilton's Commercial Partnerships team including our commerce media business. Join Hilton for an award-winning culture, top benefits, and careers with impact. If you know someone with a media and advertising background, who thrives in an entrepreneurial environment & building, pass this opportunity along! ✨ https://lnkd.in/gFpNjYW6 #TeamHilton #ForTheStay #CommerceMedia #hiring
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Robert Neer liked thisRobert Neer liked this“You work in digital? Why this?” “You have a Ph.D., why this?” Some of the questions I’ve gotten from colleagues and friends who didn’t quite get why I’d want to deepen my knowledge of behavioral psychology while working in digital. You know the cliché... “it’s all about people”? I take it seriously 😄 Understanding the psychology behind behavior, and why people act the way they do in their work environment, is a powerful lens. It helps drive high performance, but more importantly, it helps build an environment where people can perform. It doesn’t matter if it’s digital, banking, or a call center. What drives results in a healthy, sustainable way sits on human behavior, and understanding it isn’t just a nice-to-have. Not everything is about building a CV. Sometimes it’s about building knowledge. Thank you to the London Metropolitan University for the great experience.
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Robert Neer liked thisRobert Neer liked thisNeue Herausforderung bei PAYBACK Ich freue mich sehr, ab sofort die Leitung des Bereichs Analytics Consulting & Services bei PAYBACK übernehmen zu dürfen und damit auch Teil der PAYBACK Geschäftsleitung zu werden. Mit über 80 hochtalentierten Kolleginnen und Kollegen in Deutschland, Polen und Italien vereint der Bereich eine breite Palette an Expertise: fundiertes Business-Wissen in einer immer komplexer werdenden B2C Landschaft, tiefe technische Expertise in Data, Analytics & AI – und den Unternehmergeist, daraus echten Impact für unsere Mitglieder und unsere Partner zu machen. Analytics ist bei PAYBACK kein Anhängsel und keine Support-Funktion. Als Schnittstelle zwischen den technologischen Systemen, die unser Loyalty-Programm für 35 Millionen Mitglieder bereitstellen, und dem Business, das über 700 Partner für den Mehrwert des Programms begeistert, trägt der Bereich essentiell dazu bei, jedem Mitglied individuell den größten Mehrwert des Programms zu bieten. Gerade jetzt, in Zeiten von AI und Agentic Commerce, wird dieser Bereich noch entscheidender und wird ein essentieller Treiber, PAYBACK weiterhin als das führende Multipartner-Loyalty-Programm fortzuführen. Ich freue mich riesig darauf, gemeinsam mit einem so starken Team die Attraktivität von PAYBACK für Mitglieder und Partner weiter auszubauen. Danke, dass ihr mir diese Aufgabe anvertraut! #PAYBACK #Analytics #DataDriven #Leadership #AI
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Robert Neer liked thisRobert Neer liked thisAs someone who values content and reach, it’s pretty awesome to see I was able to create the most engagement for Seattle Tech Week. My goal with my post is simply to share what I’m up to and what I have been doing. I also want to stay top of mind. If you’d like to collaborate or work with me on future content and events, or would like to have TF Labs support you behind the scenes. Please feel free to reach out. Great insight from Aniket Naravanekar on social stats related to Seattle Tech Week. Thanks for putting together!
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Robert Neer liked thisRobert Neer liked thisI took my son to his first tech meetup last night and he was locked in. My 13 year old son just started learning game development with Unreal Engine so I asked him if he wanted to come with me to an AI and Gaming meetup. I was fully expecting him to get bored or want to leave early, but he enjoyed every part of it. He took note of all the demos listening intently and didn’t even pull out his phone for distractions. He got excited by the demos and talked about how he could use some of them as builds out his game ideas. I talk to him daily about the importance of developing skills and then stacking those skills. I was proud of him for engaging in conversation with people at the event and taking notes during the demos. I’d rather spend time with him than anyone else, so this was one of my most favorite days. Thanks Craig Robinson for a great event.
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Robert Neer reacted on thisRobert Neer reacted on thisI don’t post on LinkedIn as often as I’d like. Life moves fast — and between work, raising a family, and helping my wife through her health challenges over the past several years, I haven’t made as much time for it as I probably should. But this is too important not to share. My wife, Colette Amend, passed away on August 8. If you have a few minutes, I hope you’ll a tiny bit about her, her faith, and her life at https://ColetteAmend.com I’ve been incredibly blessed throughout my career, and I thank God for every opportunity He has given me. But bar none, the most important person behind so much of that journey was Colette. She supported me through every new challenge, every risk, every move, every long day, and every difficult decision. She believed in me, encouraged me, prayed for me, and always pushed me to keep going. Much of what people may have seen publicly in my career was made possible by what she did privately for our family and for me. My career has also given me the opportunity to meet and work with tens of thousands of people around the world. I’ve always believed that was more than just professional opportunity. It was a platform to lead, help others, and share together. And so much of my faith, perspective, and conviction was strengthened by Colette. Through years of evil cancer and unimaginable challenges, she never stopped trusting God. She loved people, prayed constantly, cared deeply for our family, and pointed people toward Jesus Christ. She didn’t just talk about her faith. She lived it. If this platform allows even one more person to hear her story, understand where her strength came from, or think differently about faith and eternity, then this may be the most important thing I ever post here. Careers end. Titles change. Achievements fade. Faith, love, family, and eternity matter far more. So today I simply want to recognize the person who made so much of my life and career possible. To my extraordinary wife, the devoted mother of our five daughters, my best friend, my greatest supporter, my unwavering partner, my teammate in everything, and my greatest earthly blessing — thank you. 💪🏻💕👼 What we had was built on faith, love, loyalty, laughter, sacrifice, and a lifetime of facing everything together as a team. I love you, Colette, and I always forever will! Your work here is finished. Your testimony is not. To God be the glory. 🙏🏻❤️✝️
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Robert Neer liked thisRobert Neer liked thisNo longer in "Not Stealth, but not discussing publicly yet". Introducing aizii. I have been working in retail tech for the last 15 years and have had the benefit and the curse of being too early in social commerce, beacons, and crypto commerce. Throughout that time period, I've also had the opportunity to consult for and build custom solutions and strategies for some of the biggest and most well-known brands. For the last 20+ years, the entire web- e-commerce, mobile apps, social feeds, booking systems - has been built for human eyes and visual clicks. We rely on visual layouts, marketing fluff, and human intuition to figure out a site. But the web’s newest consumer isn't human; it’s an autonomous AI Agent. When AI agents (like ChatGPT, Gemini, or Apple Intelligence) try to navigate human-centric sites, messy data and broken schemas cause a "Semantic Gap". The agent can't verify the details, enters a conflict state, and triggers an Agentic Abort, leaving the brand effectively invisible and unbuyable. Roughly 90% of sites are not optimized for AI Search or AI Transactions. Our two launch products are Aizii AEO and Aizii ASO. "aizii AEO" is for any brand, retailer, or business. You scan your site in our AEO Audit tool, and you will find out how visible your company is in AI models. We then provide you with the fixes and code to dramatically improve your AI model visibility. During our workshop at Seattle Tech Week, we had seven different people implement the changes and see instant results. Aizii AEO is best with monthly monitoring to track any changes so you can stay on top. "aizii ASO" is primarily for brands and retailers, but can work for any company wanting to accept transactions from AI Agents. Just like aizii AEO, aizii ASO has an Audit tool, though this one scans your products to see how the machine-readable data is organized and structured so that when an AI Shopping Agent hits your site, it can transact immediately and not hallucinate. Nearly every commerce site is not ready for AI Agent Transactions at the moment, and our mission is to partner with Brands to get them safely ready. Our ASO, optimizes each product to be optimized and structured for agentic commerce transactions directly on brand channels. This is our core innovation and highlights our patent-pending technology. Stay tuned for more announcements on aizii regarding our Founding Brands and Partners, as well as our series of educational content on Agentic Commerce readiness coming out this week. If you want to learn more about aizii, set up a free strategy session, or just talk because it's been a while, feel free to reach out. Thanks to everyone who has supported the journey.
Experience & Education
Licenses & Certifications
Volunteer Experience
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Product Management Center Advisory Board Member
University of Washington - Michael G. Foster School of Business
Education
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Mentor - Technology Management MBA and Hybrid MBA Programs
University of Washington - Michael G. Foster School of Business
Education
Selected to serve in a leadership role in guiding the development and career progression of MBA student-mentees through providing:
· Topical and situational mentoring on important MBA program, career, and professional development topics
· Perspective on specific business situations, tough decisions, and challenges
· Resources and experience on career paths and industries
· Encouragement, feedback, and coaching on setting and achieving professional…Selected to serve in a leadership role in guiding the development and career progression of MBA student-mentees through providing:
· Topical and situational mentoring on important MBA program, career, and professional development topics
· Perspective on specific business situations, tough decisions, and challenges
· Resources and experience on career paths and industries
· Encouragement, feedback, and coaching on setting and achieving professional goals -
Board Member
Plymouth Church UCC
Publications
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Foster Mentor Robert Neer is a Leader of Product, Master of the Pivot
University of Washington Foster School of Business
Patents
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Automatic Content Creation Based on Group Collaboration Spaces
Issued US 9319227
Devices described herein are configured to receive a post to a collaboration space shared by a group of users and provide the post to the group of users through a user interface associated with the collaboration space. In some embodiments, the group of users is a social network or social network group. The devices are further configured to automatically create a content item associated with an application of a device of at least one user of the group of users based on the post, the content item…
Devices described herein are configured to receive a post to a collaboration space shared by a group of users and provide the post to the group of users through a user interface associated with the collaboration space. In some embodiments, the group of users is a social network or social network group. The devices are further configured to automatically create a content item associated with an application of a device of at least one user of the group of users based on the post, the content item accessible through a user interface of the application.
Other inventorsSee patent -
SYSTEM THAT ENABLES A USER TO ADJUST TELECOMMUNICATIONS RESOURCES ALLOCATED TO A GROUP
Filed US 12/246,439
A system that allows a user to allocate one or more resources among members of a group, such as resources shared among a group in a telecommunications service plan. The system generates a user interface having a slider associated with each member of the group that shares a resource. Each slider includes a scale to display the amount of the resource that is allocated to the member, as well as an adjustable slider bar that may be moved along the slider in order to increase or decrease the amount…
A system that allows a user to allocate one or more resources among members of a group, such as resources shared among a group in a telecommunications service plan. The system generates a user interface having a slider associated with each member of the group that shares a resource. Each slider includes a scale to display the amount of the resource that is allocated to the member, as well as an adjustable slider bar that may be moved along the slider in order to increase or decrease the amount of the resource that is allocated to the member. In addition to displaying the amount of the resource allocated to the associated member, each slider may also display the amount of the resource consumed by that member within a corresponding billing or reporting period.
Other inventorsSee patent
Honors & Awards
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Alumni Professional Achievement Award
University of Washington Foster School of BUsiness
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Paul Schrimpf
I enjoyed collaborating with Jon Levy on this. The U.S. health system is fragmented by design because we choose a largely privatized system. This unintentionally creates fragmentation in naming. This is not a branding issue, but health systems get into trouble when they confuse branding with wayfinding. You should strive for one brand that houses your brand equity and links experiences to perceptions and preferences. Anything that appears on a sign or directory should use clear, consistent, commonly understood descriptors. When you get cute with naming, you are negatively impacting patient safety and your cashflow. Report: https://lnkd.in/gRmGCmTS PDF: https://lnkd.in/gwzQ99SF Audio Version: https://lnkd.in/gavXhgej Microdosing BrandActive Christine (Ma) Arbesman
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Kashyap Kompella
Excited to launch the TPH Rural Health Transformation Lab. We’re building an open innovation platform to help design scalable healthcare solutions for rural communities, starting with Alaska. Proud to partner with Jonathan Strong, who runs Medicaid-funded care facilities in Kodiak and brings deep operational experience in rural healthcare. Our mission is to bring together innovators, clinicians, and technologists to solve real rural healthcare challenges. If solutions work in frontier environments, they can scale anywhere.
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Charlie Lambropoulos
You can have customers saying nice things and still not have product market fit. Andy Greenfield, partner at TIA Ventures, spent decades doing qualitative research for major CPG brands. He pioneered a methodology to separate polite responses from visceral pain. Getting different audiences together in panels to understand if products were solving real problems. When they'd do these panels, they'd try to get to one specific question: "If this product were taken away tomorrow, would your life be okay or couldn't you live without it?" That's a very different question than "do you like this product?" Jesse Caesar from First Round Capital explains the difference: "If you want to know what your target is doing or how much, go for quantitative research. But if you want to know why they're doing it, or why they believe what they believe, qualitative research gets you that depth of perspective." Most founders confuse customers being polite with customers who actually care. It’s much easier to do that vs facing hard truths sometimes. You ask someone about your product and they'll say "Yeah, this is super useful." But when you dig deeper with the right questions, you realize they don't actually care that much. I can’t overstate the value of qualitative user research whether investing or building a product myself. Talking to 10 customers with very specific questions to gauge how important the problem really is. It’s also very helpful to cross reference this with quantitative metrics with tools like PostHog or Mixpanel. “Trust but verify”. The real magic is when you do both of these things in concert. For example, a client you interview may say “I really love using your feature that lets me do XYZ” and they may be very specific about the value it delivers…so it may seem like a totally credible piece of feedback, but then when you look in PostHog or any user analytics platform, you see that they’ve only used the feature once. So this begs the question “if you find feature XYZ so valuable, why have you only used it once in the past month?” This gap is often the difference between a company that scales and one that plateaus.
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